Talking point: Holding hope, creating space
Therapy Today, October 2023

Joden Joseph is one of the first recipients under the BACP bursary scheme launched last year to improve diversity in the counselling professions. He previously trained as an actor at the BRIT School for Performing Arts and Technology but later relinquished his drama school scholarship to pursue a career in counselling and psychotherapy. He achieved a first class BSc (Hons) in Psychology and Counselling Skills with a placement year in an IAPT service. He is currently studying an MA in Counselling and Psychotherapy while working as a counsellor in a secondary school, delivering the Becoming a Man project, providing mentoring and counselling support, and agitating for systemic change.

Mary Atito is an integrative psychological therapist with a special interest in spirituality, identity and transcultural approaches to mental health and the impact of trauma. As well as working in private practice, Mary is currently pursuing a BACP-funded PhD from an Afrocentric lens exploring black British men’s perception of therapy, with the aim of creating or tailoring a model of therapy specifically for the black community, through the voices of black men. She is also a Board member of the Society for Psychotherapy Research, with a remit of encouraging therapists and counsellors to become research practitioners, researching phenomena within their communities.

The following conversation came about when three dynamic therapists, all breaking down barriers in the profession that they love, came together to think creatively about challenge, change, community and collaboration, specifically in relation to shifting black men’s perception of the therapeutic space.

Mary: When we’re talking about black men in therapy, that is of course a large and diverse group of people. So I’d like to start by asking if there are any areas where you have observed a generational gap or difference between black men of different ages around mental health or engagement in therapy? Was there a difference in response to the Black Lives Matter initiative after George Floyd’s murder, for instance?

Rotimi: I remember speaking to a couple of my male psychotherapy colleagues in the immediate aftermath, and for all of us, it was an extraordinary time. After that event, the George Floyd murder, we found that we had probably more referrals or enquiries from black men and black families for therapy than we’ve ever had any time before. It was a pivotal, seminal moment in the way that black men think about their mental health – people started to think and also do differently.

I think the acknowledgement of the rising mental health crisis in the black community has impacted how we as therapists are viewed by the community – there is a growing respect that perhaps wasn’t there when I first trained. I come from a West African background so the expectations in my family were ‘education, education, education’; to become a lawyer, doctor or scientist, or somebody who is going to make a lot of money to support the extended family. And when I started speaking to my mum about the possibility of becoming a social worker, which is what I was first considering, she thought it was admirable, but her first question was: how are you going to make money? But I stuck to my guns and now I get a lot of respect for what I’m doing from my peers and family members.

Things have changed a little, but as a psychotherapeutic community we still have only a tiny percentage of qualified, experienced psychotherapists who happen to be black and male. At the same time, we know that black men still don’t access psychotherapy as a means of support, and are more likely than their white counterparts to end up in the mental health system and at the higher end, so we still have some way to go.

Joden: I relinquished my drama school scholarship to pursue a career as a psychotherapist and initially my mum was concerned that I may miss the arts. However, she soon grew to understand my decision and as always, she continued to support my career choices. For the wider family however it was a bit more challenging because of the St Lucian-bred stigma around mental health. Most of my friends are creatives so there was an adjustment to being seen as a ‘nine-to-fiver’. But many have also affirmed my decision – as recently there has been a growing awareness about trauma within the black community

It is a curious yet grave indictment on our society that we feel it necessary to articulate to another race that black lives matter in the hope of being afforded survival. And I think the gravity of the George Floyd murder led to a lot of efforts to hold organisations accountable and initiatives to be set up to support the black community in a meaningful way. I was finally able to set up a co-creation at uni to support students in the black community to access disability services and mental health services on campus and, where necessary, outside of uni. The problem is in sustaining these projects and keeping the momentum going – I know a lot have since closed down, and that can be difficult for the people who have come to rely on them.

What has been more long-lasting is the change in many young people, with more getting involved in grassroots organisations in an effort to agitate for change. For elders in the black community, however I think there was a sense that ‘we’ve been here before’. They have seen countless reports outlining the systemic problems faced by the black community where the recommendations haven’t been adhered to or put in place, so it’s understandable if there is some cynicism towards claims that this time will be different. For many, they’ve assumed personal responsibility and endeavoured to serve their community as independently as possible at the grassroots level.

Mary: I know that you are both actively trying to keep the momentum going by looking to innovative therapeutic approaches that go beyond the ‘two people talking in a room’ model. Can you tell me a bit about how your projects came about?

Joden: The Becoming a Man programme aims to support young men aged between 11 and 16. It’s a socio-emotional programme that started in Chicago, and I was actually fortunate to go there this year in April to see the programme in its original context. The initial aims were to ensure that students could improve their educational attainment, positively contribute to their community and therefore reduce negative outcomes including criminal justice system contact. The programme I currently run includes lecturing, storytelling, role-play, group activities and educational video content around six core values – integrity, self-determination, accountability, respect for womanhood, visionary goal setting and positive anger expression. Of course, what it means to become a man isn’t universal, so the idea is to promote these values and allow these young people to integrate them within the kind of manhood that resonates with them. As well as that, I also provide counselling and mentoring support. I also work within my school context to help to recognise any systemic issues that are affecting our young people, with a particular focus on young black boys around the school-to-prison issue.

Rotimi: Can I just pick up on that, Joden, and say that what you’re doing sounds impactful and I respect the commitment required in terms of effort and the time you need to invest in being able to produce this.

Joden: I appreciate that, Rotimi.

Rotimi: When it comes to creative approaches, I truly believe that nothing can be achieved without a little creativity – the mere fact that we’re talking about developing projects that are different to the standard way of doing things means that we’re being creative. If you want change, you have to dare to be creative, to stretch, to change the boundaries and the established ways of doing things.

Having said that, I believe in the power of psychotherapy, and always have done from the very first time I started training from the very first session I had as a client, which was part of my training. I couldn’t believe the difference it made to what I felt about myself and my own self-awareness. And I was amazed that there is something about this that could be very impactful, not just for me but for other people. And in a kind of evangelical way, I wanted to get more black men to think about becoming a psychotherapist, or using psychotherapy to deal with the massive problems that we have as black men in the diaspora. I mean, if we keep thinking or researching about why, as Joden was saying, so many black men are caught up in the criminal justice system, instead of going into higher education, or are separated from their partners and children, or so many black men are in poverty or end up in the mental health system, something has to happen to change that, and I believe in the power of psychotherapy, hence Black Men on the Couch. I started it in 2011 under the working title of ‘Project 2020’ because I was hoping that within 10 years I could make a significant dent in the profession when it came to the ethnic diversity of practitioners and clients.

The aim at the time was to help black men think positively about the therapy profession, a profession which to many is still mainly white and Eurocentric. I thought a good way to encourage transformation in the profession would be to interview black men in the public eye using counselling skills, and invite people to attend these public sessions , and then hopefully it would encourage more black men and black boys to see that it is OK to seek support whatever the issues might be or to consider becoming psychotherapists themselves. So I attempted contact with every black male celebrity I could think of by sending a letter and asking for their participation. So Black Men on the Couch was just my way of trying to do something creative about a heinous situation – the gap between the help black men need, and the help that’s available.

Joden Joseph

Joden: I have personally experienced how that gap feels when I found myself having to explain my reality to my white female therapist and almost justify it before we could actually commence the therapy process, because some of the challenges that I was trying to discuss didn’t make sense to her reality. It felt that there was often a question from her of, why are you so concerned about this at this young age? And so, needless to say, those counselling sessions didn’t last too long and if I hadn’t been doing the training I was doing, it might have been my last experience of therapy. That is why it is so important that the right therapy is available. Part of my motivation comes from such experiences – they motivate me to walk the talk and be the change I want to see by actually being in those rooms and supporting my own community.

Mary: Both of your projects seem to be about helping people to help themselves, and the importance of community for individuals from the African diaspora, which leads me to my next question on humanity and ubuntu, ‘I am because we are’ – how do you see spirituality sitting with therapy for black men?

Joden: I think personally my faith and spirituality have been profoundly important in terms of my wellbeing – they have been some of the most consistent and helpful resources for me. I’m convinced that we are spiritual beings, first and foremost, but of course I am mindful of minimising the potential of imposing these notions on my clients. Nevertheless, I’d recommend the bestselling book entitled I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist to anyone who is curious about spirituality, faith and religion.1 You’ll find that a lot of people these days will say they’re more spiritual than religious, and there’s a whole host of reasons why people come to that conclusion, based on some of the historic issues with the major faiths and religions, but if we truly espouse a holistic approach to mental health, especially with regards to black clients, we have to think about the role of spirituality, and how it interplays with mental health and manifestations of mental health problems. I think it’s important to acknowledge that if a person views themselves as being a spiritual being or, indeed, a person sees their presentation as being rooted in a spiritual reality, it creates a whole different way of thinking about mental health problems and the way in which we treat such problems. After all, the word psyche came from a Kemetic word ‘sakhu’ meaning spirit – I know that when I have at various points brought spirituality into the therapeutic space when working with young black boys, it’s had a profound impact.

Rotimi: When I’m working with my clients, I always keep in mind the harmony between religion, spirituality and change because this helps to open up a possible space for a new way of doing things and a new way of being. Many clients I’ve worked with both now and in the past profess some belief or faith and say that has helped them to manage difficult or tragic situations in which they find themselves, being able to reach out for something greater than themselves. In my 20s I came across ‘liberation theology’ and remember Kwame Nkrumah, the first president of Ghana, saying that traditional and modern faiths and religions have roles to play in freeing the masses who have been oppressed. He also said that traditionally ‘man is regarded in Africa as primarily a spiritual being, a being endowed originally with a certain inward dignity and value’.2 It’s complex – we are well aware of the damage done in the name of, or under the auspices of, organised religion to individuals, communities and countries. But I certainly don’t have enough faith to be an atheist because I believe there is something greater than ourselves.

Mary: It seems that spirituality can offer people another perspective to think about whatever they’re presenting with in the therapy room and provides a holistic approach to seeing things. It reminds me of epigenetics, an area of research that talks about trauma and how we carry that trauma down, and helps us explain how some of the things that have happened from transatlantic slavery and our parents passes on to us. Just like experiences that happened to our ancestors, spirituality can also be imparted. And I think there’s a question about how we interpret that, and understand how science can’t explain these layers of complexity, which creates space for the understanding of spirituality and its place in therapy and psychology.

Joden: I think it’s time to substantiate and validate some of these experiences by at least exploring it in the therapeutic context or having a discourse about these issues. One element that is so important when you talk about ubuntu and this idea of shared humanity is what does our faith compel us to do for our neighbour, so to speak? How do we then use our faith, our spirituality, our way of life? And how does it interplay with things like social justice? Psalm 89:14 tells us justice is the foundation of God’s throne, which is also demonstrated in the lives of Jesus and the prophets who often opposed injustice. Malcolm X and Dr Martin Luther King Jr are examples of religious leaders whose faith and spirituality had a practical function to help their community. So for anyone who subscribes to a faith, there begs a question: how does your faith serve the world as it is today?

Rotimi: I think when we’re talking about faith, we also have to acknowledge that there are things that we don’t know, and there are things that we don’t know that we don’t know. Now, if we accept and acknowledge that, then, in a way, what we should also as well have is faith in the things that we may not know about. And in a way, that’s what we’re expressing to our clients, there is a possibility of change, change that you may not be aware of, or can even picture in your mind, but things can be different, and you have to have faith in that, to be able to even think there is a prospect or a possibility of there being a different life.

Joden: : I think that’s a really pertinent point. Some people are completely deflated by their circumstances and in some way, we have to inspire a sense of hope that there can be some change, some difference made in their life.

Mary: I think that’s often what happens in the therapy room – we are that hope, we are that faith, that’s what we’re representing. I think, for me, I’ve been in a lot more spaces now where they talk more about ethics and co-production in therapy, we talk about being human in our therapy room, how important that is when a client is sitting in front of you – that is what I feel gives me my expertise and my competence, not just my training, but my actual growth from my lived experience as well. This leads me to my next question, which relates to something that has come out of my research on the importance of black men encouraging each other or mentoring or being ‘taken under the wing’ of someone. Is that something that you’ve experienced in some way? And how has that made a difference in your life?

Rotimi: I think we’ve got absolutely no choice but to give due consideration to looking for, and gaining, inspiration from others. For me, I’ve had lots of mentors, including the late Lennox Thomas, one of the first black psychotherapeutic psychoanalysts in this country. I took so much from him after he graciously accepted an invitation to open one of my early Black Men on the Couch events. But there are others who I see as ‘mentors from afar’ such as African American psychoanalysts Fanny Brewster and Alan Vaughn. Closer to home, authors and therapists like Dwight Turner, Nova Reid and Helen George have all had an influence on my practice and outlook, as has Eugene Ellis, the director of BAATN, who himself created a mentoring programme called ‘Each one teach one’. I certainly think that there should be much more of that, where we can work hand in hand with people who are interested in knowing more about becoming psychotherapists, because I think it’s an important part of what it is that we do. But mentors don’t have to be people we know personally – without the books of Frantz Fanon, including Black Skin, White Masks and The Wretched of the Earth, I would have had very little knowledge or experience of a black psychiatrist. Knowing the way that he had to struggle to get his theories noticed and understood in some ways helped me to think that that’s likely to happen to me, so to prepare myself for that.

Joden: I think that formal schemes play an important role as long as due consideration is given to identify the mentee’s needs, career wise. When I was doing my undergraduate degree, I was part of a Government mentoring scheme, which was definitely a good experience, but I was matched with a white female educational psychologist, and I did not have any intention of becoming an educational psychologist. A simple initial assessment to get an understanding of my career interests and needs would have improved that experience.

I think the role of a mentor needs to be demystified to include expected expenditure, suitability, the duration of the working relationship, measurements of success and indicators for any possible need to replace a mentor. It is important to recognise that black practitioners are limited and therefore lack capacity and the ability to actually take on mentees. We saw a similar situation after George Floyd’s death with black practitioners reaching burnout dealing with the demand for therapy. I think, for me, because of my background, I draw inspiration from different types of fields, as well as those mentioned by Rotimi. However, I can’t help but feel that there is still a desperate need for more African diasporan representation within psychology and psychotherapy to inspire younger generations.

Rotimi: That is a good point but it’s also true that mentorship doesn’t necessarily have to come from someone with the same cultural background – black people can have white people as mentors as well, and vice versa. I’ve been inspired by Andrew Samuels, a white psychoanalyst, because much of his work focuses on social justice and politics, and people like Susie Orbach, who co-founded Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility and who wrote Fat is a Feminist Issue3 – we could apply that idea to the work that we do, which is that black is a political issue. In other words, we can apply ideas from what we learn from others to positively serve our own purposes.

Joden: Absolutely, although I think it’s important to distinguish whether a person is seeking an informal or formal mentor. The function of having a mentor that reflects your racial and/or cultural identity is simply to foster a sense of belonging and reinvigorate your purpose and belief in your eventual success, which the Eurocentric curriculum fails to achieve for black students. From my experience, it is extremely challenging when you look around and you are the single black male on a course, and the content that you are learning is not culturally relevant, and fails to celebrate or even acknowledge the contributions of practitioners of African and Caribbean heritage. Hence, the demand to decolonise the curriculum.

In my case, and many African diasporic students, you find yourself having to study your own cultural heritage to ensure your work is relevant to you and your community, as well as attending to requirements of the course curriculum. I remember asking my module leader if I could be taught black or African psychology or anything that reflects my heritage and background, and he conceded that he wasn’t cognisant of that topic area, and invited me to share some research and some articles that could help him become more aware of the topic area. He was very supportive of me academically but culturally the onus was on me to learn and inform him about black and African psychology. I think of the poem by MK Asante Jr, who talks about black students always needing to take two sets of notes – ‘one set to ace the test and one set I call the truth’.

Joden Joseph

Mary: That is a challenging situation to be put in, even if your module leader could be described as an ally in many ways, which brings me onto a wider question about allyship and financial support. For me, BACP became an ally by funding my PhD – I am able to steer and be the leader of my research, but I have been financially supported by BACP and to me that is allyship. But what do you think about financial initiatives such as BACP bursary schemes to support more people from racialised and marginalised minorities qualify and work in our therapy profession? Do you think this is an effective answer?

Joden: I wouldn’t say it is the answer, but I think it’s definitely a step in the right direction. Again, for me, having been a recipient of the BACP bursary definitely helped to address certain systemic barriers and challenges in terms of financing courses. It has been invaluable to be afforded this opportunity in terms of that allyship, and that ability to actually allow us to have agency to pursue our career and have the voice in this profession that may help to make changes in years to come.

Rotimi: It’s no accident that there are some branches of psychology, psychoanalysis, psychotherapy and counselling that are predominantly white and middle class. The profession is as systemically racist as any other – we have to face up to this. Financial assistance, mentoring, placements or shadowing, all of that helps to change things, for us to get to know and understand the importance of this profession. But it’s also important in that it gives us a deeper understanding about the system from the inside, enabling us to hopefully do something about the system, become activists ourselves and to become practitioners. We need to stress that we’d certainly like a lot more of that kind of support for non-traditional communities because that helps to make a difference. But of course that is not the only way.

Mary: I want to acknowledge here the many people who have come before us that have tried to make change happen, and that we’re still talking about the same things. It’s really repetitive and we want to make change, we want to see the difference now for the next generation. If we want it to be different in the next five or 10 years, I think it’s important that we highlight the things that still need to be improved. I’d just like to end by saying thank you so much to you both. This has been so powerful and I just feel so blessed to just sit here with you Joden and Rotimi and just really focus on what we think we need to do to enable communities to come together and work together. Thank you also to Therapy Today and Sally Brown for providing the space, and thank you for being our ally.

The ‘Black Men, Trauma and Mental Health’ online conference on 28 October includes presentations by Rotimi Akinsete and Mary Atito. www.communitytraumaconf.com

Mary Atito